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else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture. welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle death by gunshot with the heart wrenching murder of twenty children six adults in newtown connecticut there appears to be a change of mood in the u.s. about its gun laws and culture of violence well this tragedy be a catalyst for change or merely a blip in america's love affair with guns. to

cross the guns in america i'm joined by roger pilon in washington he is the founder and director of cato center for constitutional studies in san francisco we have scott blakeman. he is a political comedian and commentator and in paris we cross to rachel martin she's a political communications strategist and a syndicated columnist all right cross talk rules in effect or just a very delicate subject and it's really taking the attention of the american people here we heard president obama talking about it that something has to change scott in san francisco do you think that's possible is the mood change enough to change a culture of violence in america absolutely i think the horrific shooting in newtown connecticut really is the tipping point and things have already changed first of all the national rifle association which for forty years has been more concerned about protecting the profits of gun manufacturers than protecting innocent men women and children they're starting to speak differently formally

pro-gun senators both democrats and republicans are already showing willingness to change the media here in the united states it's shifting so this this is different politically president obama who didn't do much in his first four years about gun control seems very committed he says you know there's no excuse not to take action so we need to reinstate the federal small weapons ban but this time do it with very few exceptions or no exceptions hopefully and now is the time to really and act tough gun legislation roger do you support that noticed that scott has already begun by vilifying the national rifle association and painting this as a good guys and bad guys issue it is not that tall here in the united states under the second amendment the supreme court has ruled that individuals have the right to own guns for self-defense and for other purposes this is an ancient

right of self-defense the debate that's going on right now. on the part of some people would like to strip us of that right i think that that's. literally let me fill up my you're saying revoking the second amendment ok scott are you saying that absolutely not a fact that people use this paranoia that we're going to go to your house and take your guns away first of all i mean the supreme court did rule as roger said the second amendment talks about having a well regulated militia this was written in the eighteenth century this doesn't apply to the average american carrying assault weapons that are even more that deserve to be in the military not in our streets so that's not a legitimate argument at all and i'm not attacking n.r.a. members as a fact of majority of n.r.a. members support restrictions on gun ownership ok so if your leadership is going to

say i have a reading scott is already calling into question the supreme court's reading of the second amendment i think the supreme court got it right but the issue here is that we live in a world of risk we will always have to deal with this problem and the only question is which measures are going to be effective and which are not we have had gun control restrictions there may be room for improving some of those and i stand for that but the idea that we're going to address this problem without addressing the fundamental issue namely how can we more effectively do this prank tickly and i stand for the idea that the best defense against an unstable person with a gun is to have a gun in the hands of a stable person who can take that person ok so all right let's we're going to arrange it only as we're going to go in paris she hasn't said

a word on the program yet rachel jump in. you know it appears that there's some ignorance here with respect to self defense technology that currently exists i walk around here in paris and i and i have a very very sane high tech very effective method of self defense and here it is right here and this is a. device that allows me to deploy a capsaicin gel at a distance of about thirteen feet with airbag technology at one hundred eighty kilometers an hour with a diameter of about two feet and if so if i wanted to incapacitate somebody who was threatening me in any in any way this would do the trick and it's thirty nine euro and you can buy it you know it's it's legal you can walk into a store that sells these and here in france and buy them and it's made in switzerland and this is i would argue just as effective as a gun and the benefit is that when you pull this out on somebody who happens to have a gun they're not going to see it as a gun the first question is going to be in their mind is going to be what is that

and before they can figure it out you will deploy that and you can and without killing them so i think you know to say that a gun is really the most effective means of taking down somebody who's threatening you imminently is ignorant of the technology that currently has you know it doesn't necessarily result in killing somebody said recently in my regular job waiting night but that's illegal in many jurisdictions in the united states in the sole weapon is no it's not actually in most this is not weapon and in fact it's not because i looked it up before i came here and guess what it's not even illegal in france it is however in the u.k. but in france it's not in germany it's not and in most jurisdictions in the united states it is not illegal and it's highly effective and. one hundred eighty kilometers an hour oh just over one hundred ten miles an hour gel in their face spray actually it's a good. idea that guns are the only solution is ignorant scott go ahead and this is

to. you're more likely to have the gun used against you have a member of family as in the case. brutally killed his mother and twenty six other people this is insanity frankly saying we need to arm people to arm first graders are. in san francisco now but any urban city in america could magine if everyone is armed and have less guns i don't think and as far as the second amendment goes let me just specify that he has said that doesn't mean you can have any arms isn't give you the right to their military whatever weapons you want ok roger if you want to reply to that go ahead.

supports it but there are some jurisdictions in united states where that is illegal ok but you can have one but you can't. it's amazing it's very it's amazing ok rachel go ahead well see this is the issue that this is the issue that i have and i wrote about this this particular subject this week for my column with the tribune newspapers across the u.s. and that is that the main cultural difference between a country like the united states and for example canada that has less gun crime but guns are still legal is that there is there are a battery of tests that are executed whenever somebody applies to own use or store a firearm in canada any kind of firearm whether it be a long gun or a or a handgun and that's what i would suggest that maybe needs to be implemented in the

united states i don't really have a problem with much of a problem with people owning guns if they can prove that they've taken a licensing course they know how to handle it they are safety oriented with it they're educated about it and there's been a thorough background check including interviews of ex-partners partners in the last few years to find out if they've ever had any kind of treatment by doctors for depression for mental illness for behavioral issues because in canada the police actually execute a thorough background check that includes things like that and and nobody really complains about the fact that there's a lack of freedom. that's a gun in canada so perhaps that's a solution perhaps just making sure that that there's a minimum hash old so that the person the people who are who are allowed to own guns in the united states are indeed proven sane and the onus isn't the reverse because the way it works right now is you have to literally prove yourself to be insane in order to have a gun and to not get a gun and i should have the other way around i would argue and that seems to work

pretty well in canada so would that be an issue there would that be so one of the gentlemen that you have are we have we have a we have background checks that are required in all would you let me finish that are required in all but the gun show context and i would be in favor of requiring them in the gun show context too but they are not foolproof you can have people who do have mental problems who have not been adjudicated as such and you're going to have people who are going to slip through that and that's what we have to face up to and besides that there are some civil liberties issues with respect to this and we have to consider those as well scott you want to say something about background checks that i don't think we have any as i think this is civil liberties issue at all no one has first of all we do have background checks but they're not well in force and as roger did say i was glad to hear the plans call their gun show enough people there and a large percentage of guns are procured that way and you know it's much harder to

get a driver's license or or if you close on a house or an apartment it takes weeks and months and this should be a lengthy waiting period this should be extensive background checks but in the end you can tell if somebody is mentally ill or not it's very hard to prove that and the thing is we need to take immediately as i said earlier as military assault weapons out of the hands of everybody they should be banned to reinstate the banned more strictly or before and you know roger you say well it doesn't really help well that's not true in australia for example they had horrific shooting that years ago thirty eight people were massacred they instituted some of the toughest gun laws in the world and that. situation changed in japan they have very strict gun laws they have hardly any guns by the america of the twenty three wealthiest nations eighty percent of gun violence happens in america now right it is that acceptable in a civilized society to accept that we have to say no to that and we have to limit gun ownership as much as possible roger do you want to reply that before we go to the break so interesting that you it's interesting that you chose the australian

example because time magazine had a lengthy story about that in two thousand and eight that showed that the numbers did not change at all in australia well other sources say it dropped forty percent other sources that have dropped out and i jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that sharp break we'll continue our discussion on guns in america stay with r.t. . or you only want. you. to. believe.

illegal. divine power in action to make the sacraments. i am just so we need these we are under the control of those governing us before at the service of the space mafia i found that on that day the magnetic field of the sun will be fixed to create the super got the stuff. after the second coming it will be a beautiful place it will receive its paradoxical glory it will be a renewed world and it will be a beautiful place. full of the best. will stop this

type of ammunition. it's good business for us it's kind of like being a doctor you know if there's a disaster businesses. better unfortunately.

you know we. welcome back to cross talk on peter lavelle remind you we're talking about gun control in america. right if i go back to you in washington why do americans need assault weapons military assault weapons because the only thing they do is commit atrocities it seems like what are assault weapons or the weapon that was used in connecticut. well that's a circular argument what's an assault weapon define it well it has a lot of ammunition to be able to kill a lot of people those kind of guns or that's a different thing that's a magazine well you do same as i don't need them in america other than commit

atrocities why do we need what they why do they go on the assailant tag on guns and deploy a lot of bullets in a fury that i experience i don't need to take would take out that many were not in that amount of time that's not why that's not the definition of the assault weapon is a emotionally charged description that would fit any number of weapon what you're whining going on this is and i guess it isn't just about values you're only talking about i don't hey what about that one specific what you're talking about what you're talking about is a large volume magazine now the proposal is afoot to reduce magazines to holding only ten roam do you support that the problem with that pardon do you support that in my in mind favor that yes are you in favor of that because it is because you delude yourself all you need to do then is have

three magazines which take about three seconds to replace and you've got your thirty round magazine i mean this is the kind of ignorance about the nature of guns that we hear from the gun control folks ok scott how do you feel about that i mean there's no it means there roger yeah if you take a little extra time you know it's save lives it's hard to reload it gives people a chance to escape but the point is as you pose a question peter a serious answer is no no no reason why it's very seconds whatever it is. any time yet look the pro point is there is no you reason you're the reason they are in america really lucky to own an assault weapon go ahead look i agree and you can't plug a magazine like that into a shotgun so you can't say that it's only the magazines and it's not the guns because they have to make the guns to suit the magazine so obviously there are guns that allow for that kind of thing to happen so what's the what's the point of

having one if it's not to kill people what's i don't understand that either i think peter has a good question and what's the whole idea if you're not here on serving in the military and what's the whole point of those guns that allow for those magazines what would you what kind of gun would you will owe people to buy what kind of gun would i allow people to buy it well that's a really you know broad question sane people crazy people what i mean no i want to i personally really i don't know what you're out of to me personally what kind of gun. yes yeah what what kind of gun would i allow and i will see this is the problem is when i if i was to answer a question like this and to cause mass panic in america by saying i want to ban guns the first think everyone in the u.s. would do and they've proven this in the wake of the shooting when people start talking about gun control is right on by guns so this is the dilemma we were in right now and that america is in is if if politicians started talking about more

gun control and banning things in a really aggressive way people will just go out and arm up because they're afraid that their guns are going to be taken away so i started. saying that it would start right roger go ahead you know would you have voted by saying that you want i don't think people should cause all islands in their homes right well ok that's what i said all right both i don't think you should have assault rifles another home and i you know because let me tell you i don't think people should have assault rifles in their home and if drones ever became available on the commercial market i don't think people should have drones in their home either i mean i what point do we draw the line to listen i shotgun to defend your property you'll because i have a i have an issue and i'm asking you because you know showing a shot of this and you saying i should i mean and i mean a lot of people most of it everybody could see it i remember larry so i mean if you're going to your home if that's what they choose in the end they've gone through the right checks to get a shot gun sure can can you cold ok for i'm going to come on you guys who is going

san francisco jump in go ahead what kind of gun should people yes i would say i'm. well i think look i mean in a perfect world we wouldn't have guys obviously hunters who by the way i don't i think we spend too much time worrying about the rights of hunters they were has the edge over the deer they're armed the deer are and sort of that we have to worry about but let's have their shotgun i think we should ban all semi we should ban all semiautomatic and automatic weapons that would be either the you know any any gun that you can use to shoot rapid fire i think a civilian does not need if somebody wants to have a rifle in their house again i think it would cause more harm than good if they want to have that you know they could have that but they kind of semi automatic automatic weapon has no place in our society doll this is interesting because now we're starting to narrow this no this is very interesting because we have had rachel unable to describe what kind of going she would we have heard scott say you know you are actually out and i'm down just i actually said to shock you know

shotgun i said you know and it's by you know like even if i'm not always what excuse me excuse me can i just say something can i finish please can i please there's no you i have not seen him you're going to generally when i show you scare me it is a really good sir excuse me excuse me no hang on you actually misheard me so obviously we're listening so i'd like to repeat what i said so it's clear before we continue on the argument that's false i said a shotgun in people's homes if they chose to be great if that's indeed what they want if they pass the right psychological test intelligence has an emotional quotient test to determine if they're sane enough to keep it and they know how to they know how to use it not how to think fine shotgun fine but however they have to also balance that with the fact that if somebody comes and if somebody breaks into their home and scares me if somebody breaks into their home and they go to pull that shotgun on the perpetrator a that person is already a criminal so they've proven by virtue of the fact they're breaking into your house in the first place that they have the psychological profile to do something crazy that perhaps you don't by pulling the trigger first secondly they have the

advantage of foresight they come into your house they've planned it all they assume you might have a gun you're going to be going to your gun vault. tried to get out you're going to be rifling around no pun intended looking for your socket so i don't know to what extent it's just a security blanket and to what extent it's really effective ok roger i would just like rowan to be fair and through go ahead roger are you through rachel go ahead roger through the floor yeah ok go ahead thank you hadn't so rachel would allow shotguns whereas scott it seems would allow guns that are not automatic semi automatic but where you have to probably pull the bolt every time you fill the chamber the problem there is that you have reduced substantially the right to self-defense if you are under attack on a city street by multiple assailants you're going to want a gun that will serve the purpose or you could be walking down the road i saw it

all drive like you have this is really in the chamber you walk down the street just america with an assault rifle really just have to die i've got i'm telling you what i've seen is you the trick i'm and you are right in front of my face right now we've got rain go ahead roger peter peter i'm going to end this thing. ok you want to run this thing and you've already got it two to one now if i give you as much time as last time overall in general point in my trying to give you as much time as i will go ahead good well then then do that let's have some discipline on the other side all right the pistol with a ten chamber magazine is the kind of weapon that you would need in solve defense if you are in a urban area that requires you to defend yourself yet that's the kind of thing you would not i rather guess apparently this would not allow people to own scott go ahead. from well i live in new york city it's all it's i'm telling you that if everybody was armed with pistols that could shoot ten rounds it would be carnage

every day left and right it's an insane impractical to isolate really a look live for attaching people the more armed we are the less safe when can you cite an example of some civilians walking on the subway they pull up their arms and gunned down attackers it just doesn't happen and it makes them less safe because rachel alluded to if your arm you're going to worry her as you heard in this wordly is an officer point is a weapon for our time roger you know you most in most states in most states today we have concealed carry possible and it turns out there is almost no crime committed by those people who have concealed carry permits in fact we have evidence number of cases in which they have stopped carnage ok and that's the point no you don't want to linger on other incidents ok rachel going to head now you have to break down the statistics on that because they actually don't count as homicides gun gun incidents that where i got happens to go off accidentally and shoot

somebody in the face which happens all the time but they're not counted in the statistics because it's not an intentional crime it's not a homicide it's not you know it's an accidental shooting and that kind of thing are counted quite differently in the statistics so we don't really have a good feel of that but it happens all the time so i mean the idea is here that people are running around carrying guns packing heat walking walking around the city is is is i think isn't exactly completely true just last week in oregon and there are many who are going to be in a mall and a mall and a person with a concealed carry permit trained his gun on the shooter the shooters saw that and shot himself and that was the end of it two people died not twenty. ok scott just last month you know i've got a device in my hand right here that would have done the same thing and this device i have in my hand right here is legal i not only fell from there was

a far away thing from how far away from from from thirteen feet away ok i had it well maybe one hundred eighty kilometers an hour. roger what kind of gun control do you support the user to shoot almost a mile here and it's almost i already roger kind of got the right kind of gun so hard but i'll tell you what kind i support i support for background checks for the gun gun show and i support a broad. right to concealed carry once you've gone through the training and the background checks because that is the only way you're going to reduce not and you cannot in these kinds of situations but you can reduce them if that teacher who lunge that principal lunged at the shooter last week in newtown had been able to take him out

a lot of those kids would be alive today ok we've run out of time here unfortunately the surgery you're going to revisit are many faces a time i guess in washington san francisco and in paris and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember cross-talk rules. recently. wealthy british style. markets why not. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy

with mike's cause or for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into cars a report on. the mission and free accreditation free zones court charges free. range germans three risk free studio types free. download free broadcast quality video for your media projects and a free media dog r.t. dot com. you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm tom hartman welcome to the big picture.